Not impossible. Most people in this thread are staying on topic in a civil manner . But there is a great deal of good help and it should be tried. Crushed the left side of my skull. I would agree that Sproul shouldnt be disqualified due to his ADULT sons issues. I think that was what Barbara was in part advocating for up thread. Can you please identify the comment? He gave several steps to be taken in dealing with a professed believer who is living a life of rebellion against God. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. What a terrible experience to go through so young. This is not a hill to die on and one of the purposes of the blog is to understand the point of view of others. It seems to me that secure and confident men (I dont like the term real men/women) should do as they wish/deem wise themselves, instead of acting like teenage boys trying to impress each other. The SBC passed a resolution this summer affirming penal substitutionary atonement as the correct theology, or so I am told. Find an obituary, get service details, leave condolence messages or send flowers or gifts in memory of a loved one. Someone who lurks here and has a family history of alcoholism, and struggles with the issue as a Christian, found Barbaras response to H.U.G. but I thought most Christian people understood that Christ is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity (God) and that a Person died on the Cross. I took her post as saying if a guy is doing something unethical or that the Bible says disqualifies that person from a leadership position, then the guy should step down. So I was only saying what the Bible says. 2. Are they defensive about their drinking habits, ever ready with an excuse even when one is not needed, sensitive to perceived criticism more than most? Pennsylvania. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. In time they were each restored, one after repentance and one after a time in prison. Maybe feeling comfortable is too much to expect when something is not ready to be shared. I dont see the comparison as connecting to RC Sproul Jr., except for the coincidence that they are both alcoholics. If you have a problem, cut it out or abstain. He had severe arthritis as well it totally crippled him to the point he could not work, took gold shots, eventually, the treatment and bad medical advice killed him. 12 step recovery (which I noted above is being challenged as the dominant mode of alcohol and drug addiction recovery in the US) is still pretty widespread and its tenents are a spiritual awakening via the 12 steps, followed by maintenance of a spiritual program largely of humility, honesty and service to others. The street is a two-laner through Fifties-vintage tract homes, and I was eastbound somewhere between Brookhurst & Euclid when I noticed the headlights coming towards me looked WRONG. @ Velour: Sounds like RC Sr. also needs treatment as do the non-drinkers in the family. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. However, you did make a good point, and Im glad you did: Sproul Jr. did indeed engage in that sin and irresponsibility before those tragedies occurred his life which bolsters my original statement. I think that is the kindest thing I can do for them as they are the weaker one/s in this regard. An honest pastor will say, Im sorry, but Im not qualified to give you advice about that, but that would be a rare pastor. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/03/us/politics/for-donald-trump-lessons-from-a-brothers-suffering.html, Im impressed to now discover that there are multiple Celebrate Recovery groups in the Ft. Wayne area: http://www.celebraterecoveryfortwayne.com/. Tax evasion is a crime. Rcjr is a gentle spirited man who loves his family and grieves over his sin. I dont think Ive revealed much of anything on my views for you to make such a statement. There is more than one issue going on with RC2: alcoholism, spiritual abuse, unrepentant heart, etc. Im fortunate in that my Dad did get sober via AA. Sometimes, we just have bad genes because we live in a world with disease and suffering. The Bible calls drunkenness a sin. They also have to be willing to cut themselves off from all their friends (the only friends alkies keep are drinkers and other alkies) and make new sober friends. I am furious at how our culture tolerates substance abuse as much as we do. Julie Anne reminded me about the path RC-Jr took, after MY post previously. Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. There just arent that many emotionally healthy churches who even know how to genuinely love sober people, let alone the chemically dependent ones. Someone earlier said RC Sproul Jr a psychopath. According to Spinderella, Sproulhas allegedly been drunkdriving with his kids for years. So I was only saying what the Bible says. I would be very surprised if he hadnt at least been required to go to a few meetings. not even to eat with such a one., IMHO, these behaviors are socially dangerous, and therefore, that is why, perhaps the Bible says to not socialize with those who practice these specific 6 in the church. Barbara trotted out the classic evangelical line that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit, etc. Neither the logical fallacy of ad hoc nor the fallacy of poisoned well should be hauled out and passed off as anything except what it is-fallacious reasoning. 104:1415). Many in the SBC hold to substitutionary atonement but not PENAL substitutionary atonement. On the way to that peace I found a little bit of information about ARC, which my church was affiliated with and that made all the difference in the world. Put that drink away now! Here as I type these words, there is a bottle of wine sitting on the kitchen counter within my view. No prison time. After reading the entire cited paragraph, RC limits his comments to drinking alcohol and sidesteps ABUSE of alcohol by others. However, it is not the same as a disease which is not brought on by the choice of behavior. Today that little churchis her home church. A sermon wont cure my chronic conditions, but it might have an insight that helps me. 1. Velour wrote: Velour wrote: I found that quote on this site: Not sorry I did, either. I qualified my response to Lea, in case you missed it, that most of the alcoholics in my area go to in-patient treatment. leads to much worse compulsive drinking. Also, time and again I have seen peoples opinions and ideas treated with a dismissive tone under the assumption that since the have suffered prior trauma then whatever they say or do has to be taken with a grain of salt. Because she never appeared even tipsy, few people knew her problem. Time to get specific. For example a young man who was one of RC Jr's personal assistants had lost his driver's license because of multiple DUIs. I learned at an early age that it can be DEADLY!!! We do not support this book or his return to public ministry.. From this one statement (R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. No one has said we shouldnt try. Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. Celebrate Recovery does not advocate divorce. 2. masks off! Ill try hard to not do it again. Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. . I was very clear that R.C. Heres where it can be complicated to be part of the church if the church environment is where hes long been allowed to play out sinful behaviours should he be there right now? The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. So here it is. I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. However its ten times harder hearing the discouragement in others voices. I have no doubt that I have a guardian angel (maybe more than one!). (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). Sproul Jr.s excommunication. The response speaks for itself. However, aswe noted previously,Drug Court only applies to misdemeanor charges. I would also like to say that in my own extended family there are some alcoholics. But now I understand why youve used it. This is a much bigger problem in the church than just R.C. RC Sproul Jr has characterized abortion as a terrible form of violence and a "holocaust" against the pre-born. I had already read your first comment about Barbara and codependency. Were all (finally) in agreement that the man needs treatment. Ive seen the terrible impacts of alcohol abuse in my family, beginning with just a beer at the picnic to full-fledged alcoholism with many consequences. That is not what Jesus would have us do. This truck had lap belts, which Im pretty sure we werent using. Wartburgers, I suppose I should recuse myself from further comments on this piece. Velour, you are assuming Barbara is saying that based on his alcoholism. Not always. RC Jr., of course, was top dog in the congregation(s) he led because of his fathers reputation and influence, maybe? The accusation about St. Peter Presbyterian Church being a cult and RC Sproul Jr being a cult leader was widely assumed for years in Bristol, Virginia especially among pastors in the area. Theyve paved the path to hell for their Precious. The consequences of their enabling are far far worse than if theyd just let him have to face the consequences of his bad life choices on his own. . Somehow, he recovered, fathered a son, but soon was drinking again. I watch RC continue to persevere through terrible physical pains preaching Gods word wearing an oxygen mask . I did a poor job of hearing you through all your pain, a pain which is very genuine and proper considering all the terrible things youve likely been through. Assuming there is a correlation only gives Sproul the perfect excuse he needs to justify his drinking, and I can guarantee you its also the excuse he used with his drunk driving attorney who then used it on the Prosecutor and Judge: My client lost his wife to cancer in 2011 and his daughter in 2012. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). Friend your comment made me weep. She died after a 10-year battle with progressive supranuclear palsy, a rare neurological disease for which there is no cure and about which little is known. his life is focused on his next drink) then God tells us to put that person out of the church to hand him over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. I dont think many people in American culture know what to make of people who go to social functions and dont stand around with a drink. Frustration, yes. It got depressing, I have lost well over 200 of the people I worked with, most of them younger than I am. Vesta Voorhis Sproul (age 84) is currently listed at 347 Bellview Pl, Sanford, 32771 Florida and is affiliated with the Republican Party of Florida. What if we were discussion a DUI as the culmination of years of heavy drinking on the part of your former pastor? My own experience with a probable was one night when I was going down Orange Ave in Anaheim at night. Those of us who have practical life experience with alkies know theyre masters of deception, and it doesnt get any more deceptive than faking humility, remorse and repentance, something that alkies often develop much practical experience with. He had always been so nice before, but that made me feel that I couldnt trust him. However it might have happened, we did not see it until we were out. Velour wrote: Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. Years later when I was a senior dating an older guy (in his twenties, lol) who took me to a college party about an hour from home, I made him promise me that he would not add anything to my Coke. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking catch you on the next TWW piece. And it made us see that the pain we had experienced with our oldest son could be used for good.href=#comment-329312 title=Go to comment of this author>Velour: Your situation reminds us that there are excuses and there are reasons and your real anxiety over your daughters illness was a REASON, not an excuse for medicating .. you were right to get help and thank God you did. I have a common interest with one individual vintage automobiles. Churches frequently blow it on all of the big issues mental health, domestic violence, divorce, and sexual abuse because they remain unteachable and think they have all of the answers. Would you please forgive me? There is more to the story with these people. RC Jr needs professional help and Ive already said so on the Spinderella blog. I even opened up to church people about some of the problems I had but was met with platitudes and put downs, not support. Clipping found in The Pittsburgh Press in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on Jan 5, 1959. Theres also a lot more to the Bible than just one verse. Alcoholism is an excuse to drink and every alcoholic in the world usually tries to find an excuse to drink.<<. I assume you already know, Christs church isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew. Wow! Alcohol is generally an excuse. (I figured that if you had a DSM book that you were in mental health in some capacity, and Ive read your other comments on other threads.). Heres a quote from at least as far back as 2005. I was thanked earlier today by one of the TWW lurkers who struggles with alcohol and was terribly upset by what was said about people with this condition. which guy of those 3 would you choose to be stuck with? Thus securing a good and firm foundation, perhaps? You get the family together and do an intervention. Velour wrote: In most cases those sins were nothing more than they wanted to leave his church for another church. In my family, there was a sudden death and one of the parents reacted with extremely heavy drinking (binge) and ended up with delirium, shaking, and experiencing auditory hallucinations and feelings of being persecuted a psychotic break. Your ex-church family sounds like a bunch of cheerless people. I did go back to my faith family. Call me a cynic, but RC Jrs track record on repentance is abysmal. Steam explosions from a pressurized system rupture are BAD. An 501(c)3 pastoral position of public trust has been verified? It wont. Do people who have alcoholism or other issues get passes from rules and standards that apply to everyone else? I just want to be true-blue, show him that God doesnt run away from us when we are bad. Oh, excellent, Nancy2. I think what I am trying yo say is each person stands before God on his/her own.were we guilty of our sons choices,? Anyway. The Bible also provides us guidelines of what it means to be a member of Christs body, understanding that certain demands are made and certain restrictions naturally apply, and certain warnings are given as well. I hope it is true. Thank you for your thoughtful comment to me. Do they criticize non-drinkers? Telling me how to think, how to feel, that Im not permitted to use certain terminology. When those boundaries get repeatedly violated then a marital separation might be called for, although it doesnt always need to even be a legal separation filed in the courts. Some people view CR as just a Christian version of AA because it was founded by an AA leader. . But not everyone is an alcoholic nor should they be classified as such. Our records show Robert Charles Sproul (83) as possible relative. I wouldnt call it a mixing of apples and oranges. Velour said: Actually, yes, several people have never mentioned treatment. I dont know. As for whether or not other believers part company with him that situation is delineated by Christ Jesus Himself in Matthew 18. My mother died several years back, causing me great emotional pain, but I didnt turn to alcohol (or other substances) to cope with that pain. Thank you for sharing. I appreciate the work that you and Jeff Crippen do at A Cry for Justice. Now that Ive been spending more time reading what they write, I am shocked that they have any platform at all. Nobody blames him, but nobody fails to monitor his behavior either. A question: I know that mans wisdom can only carry one so far. In time, the spouse of a problem drinker will have clarity as to how to proceed. So a married guy being an alcoholic is a justification for using a cheating site? The proper course of action is to not enable someone and to get them into a treatment program. Now I can look back and say, How in the world did we not see how destructive their theology and community was? *rar , '*& . That is making it something comprehensive rather than case specific. And they have people in their life who are honest with them and call them on it. (This is confusing me ). Id also add that AA, in the case of one of my family members, after he stopped drinking, contributed to his so-called stinking thinking.. I have noticed that you get stuck in a rut and keep going over the same thing over and over again, even though you know the issues have already been covered and logically and responsibly discussed. Same in books on domestic violence those who are experts on DV will tell readers dont waste time bringing your abusive husband into marriage counseling, because marriage counseling is ineffective at treating abuse. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. so pushing anger down is exhausting and depressing and being able to BE angry openly is a step in the right direction, My husband likes to read Peanuts and is always amused when he can announce that Im having a crab-in a la Lucy Van Pelt. It would be nice if you acknowledge that. Nobody kicked her out. With follow-up. That was wrong of Sproul Jr. and he did an incredible amount of damage. No sir (or maam), I did not create a false correlation. Finally, if anyone who is aware of further drunk driving or other forms of abuse,I hope that they will call Child Protective Services. More of Anne Lamotts conversion story: http://ontopofgiants.blogspot.com/2012/06/anne-lamott-on-her-conversion-to.html. Leave him alone! I have noticed that you get stuck in a rut and keep going over the same thing over and over again, even though you know the issues have already been covered and logically and responsibly discussed. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). He was a success story. I had to research my problems on my own to figure out what was wrong with me, and to find solutions. A man with enough of a track record to be REJECTED by the Presbyterian Church in America when he sought to have his ordination accepted there as a Teaching Elder and opted to go the micro denom route. I noticed the same kinds of barbs being dished out over there, so its not just this blog, this issue, this thread, and me in particular. No excuses for it, ever. No one can make him do that. spiritualsb@gmail.com. and me: Yes, Christiane, thats precisely how it works. 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